Re: The Spiral Staircase House
Posted by: "eran.gafni" eran.gafni@XXXXX.com
Wed Jul 8, 2009 6:28 am (PDT)
I strongly disagree with you, Noel. Charlie WAS the leader, he WAS the mastermind behind the killings (all the killers and other family members, besides Sandy and Squeaky say that). Actually, the only persons denying Charlie been the leader of the cult are Charlie, Sandy and Squeaky. Period.
Even your nickname is something that come from Charlie; ATWA is Charlie's idea, as dictated to his (still) followers, it's not YOUR idea, isn't it? You wouldn't reach for this idea without Charlie, or do you think Sandy is the person who leads it and Charlie follows HER?
The members of the Family treated themselves as part of a Family and the nickname was coined by CHarlie who said: "They are my kids and I'm their father". It wasn't Bugliosi's invention.
I agree that not in all cases Charlie used direct orders. So what? Try to find a direct order made by Lucky Luciano to kill his rivals, or a direct order by Hitler to kill Jews by gas, and you won't find one, but since all their followrs learned by group dynamic or by coersion to find out what their leader means in his insinuations or sayings, they knew excactly what to do.
That is why Tex, Patricia, Susan, Leslie, Bobby and even Linda knew excactly what is expected of them by Manson -had he didn't want them to kill, not a single blood drop would have been shed in summer 1969.
--- In charlesmanson_ and_family@ yahoogroups. com, "X"
>
> Yeah, but I think they mean it in the term that it was originally intended. They lived as a family but the way BUGliosi used it, he made them sound like a cult. As for the interviews, I have a few of Sandy Goode and Lynette Fromme who both state that Charlie did NOT order or mastermind the killings. Charlie himself acknowledges that they did what they may have THOUGHT he wanted but that's as far as it goes. As a matter of fact, I have a clip of him saying: "You've got to be responsible for your actions. I'm not your leader, I'm not your follower". So, that pretty much indicates that while he may have been walking on the edges of things, he had NOTHING to do with what the actual killers did. The only thing he did and does in fact admit to is giving advice. That's hardly masterminding or ordering anything. He told them basically that if they're going to do something, do it right and leave something whitchy. He admitted this in an interview with Dianne Sawyer. Still, it's only advice he gave. NOT orders. Bottom line, I think the murders would have happened regardless because they had it in them all along to do something like that. Even if Charlie really had told them what to do, they didn't have to go along with it. Everything they did was by free choice plain and simple. It's like the old saying goes: "If someone tells you to jump off a bridge, are you going to do it"? I highly doubt Charlie had quite that much power over them. He's only 1 man after all and nobody can put something inside of you that was already there in the first place. Regarding Mark Turner, I still have my own reservations about him but if you want to think of him as a good source of information, so be it. It's none of my concern.
>
> X (aka Noel)
>
>
> --- In charlesmanson_ and_family@ yahoogroups. com, "eran.gafni"
> >
> > If you have seen videos of newsreels from the trial and interviews, you can't avoid the fact that it was the Family members themselves who referred for themselves as "Family" whose father was Charlie Manson and all their thoughts and activities were either directed by him or inspired by their desire to please him. As for the murders - all those involved in them and those who were witnesses to the sessions prior to the murders said that Charlie and only him ordered the killings, chose the targets and the people to carry them out, so I think there is not as if he, gracefully, took the blame upon himself; Charlie was the mastermind of the killing and if he wasn't directed them - none of them would have happened.
> >
> > As for Mark Turner, I still can't understand why is he not a reliable source (although I think that his site is not been updated as frequent as it should - other sites are updated and enrich themsleves with more information almost daily).
> >
> > --- In charlesmanson_ and_family@ yahoogroups. com, "X"
> > >
> > > Well, if that's your impression of him, it's fine. I just see it differently is all. No, I'm not in direct contact with anyone from the family. I know someone who claimed to be but she turned out to be a backstabber unfortunately. Yeah, you're probably right about only hard-core members of the family knowing the truth of it all. Of course, I personally consider them more like supporters of Charlie and not so much like hard-core family members. "The Family" from what I understand is a term that BUGliosi used to describe them. Basically the way I look at it, they were just a bunch of people living together as a family similar to a commune but some of whom made a series of terrible mistakes in the end. Their intentions at the time may very well have been good since they allegedly did it for "the love of brother" but in reality, it was not what they should have done. Even though Sandy (Blue) states that Charlie never ordered the killings or planned them, unfortunately he ended up taking all the blame anyway.
> > >
> > > X (aka Noel)
(This is 1 of the earliest interactions I had with Eran who is a Manson hater. He's no longer with the group.)
Re: The Spiral Staircase House
Posted by: "WHITE RABBITT" whiterabbitt83@XXXXX.com
Wed Jul 8, 2009 6:37 am (PDT)
erin, u are so wrong about noel,
she was one of the original people of this group when we first started it, she is vary knowledgeable about the case she knows what shes talking about
(Interesting message that was posted in my defense.)
Re: The Spiral Staircase House
Posted by: "jlm30260@XXX.net" jlm30260@XXX.net
Wed Jul 8, 2009 4:25 pm (PDT)
Does anyone think that CM will have all revealed after his death? You know, the way Lucky Luciano did. LL had a book that was only to be released after he died. I also wonder if Squeaky knows everything.
--- In charlesmanson_ and_family@ yahoogroups. com, Davd Paschal
>
> I think that some of the family don't fully understand
> everything! This was not like a well organized crime
> family. Only person who knows all is CM and that is
> it. I do not think personally, there is anymore to find
> out at this late date. The murders are going to be 40 years
> old next month. There is really nothing else to know
> or in all reality anywhere to get it. Most of these people you
> see commenting about stuff now, are just people bringing up
> information that is already known.
>
> This does not mean that this site and forum does not
> serve a purpose. The purpose, at least for me, is to generate
> thought about the motives and the circumstances surrounding
> what happened near 40 years ago now. New discoveries you
> can forget. But, determining the complexities of the mind of
> these killers and the rest of the family could take another 40 years at
> least.
>
> dp
(I would like to note that "jlm30260" aka "Jamie" started out quite civil but later on turned into a nasty little Manson bashing witch. This will be shown at some point down the road.)
Re: The Spiral Staircase House
Posted by: "X" atwa13x@XXXXX.com
Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:04 am (PDT)
eran, this little "Helter Skelter" garbage you claim that Charlie spoke of was BUGliosi's trip just so he could win the case. There were no lectures according to those who were there at the time and remain loyal to Charlie. In any case though, it doesn't matter what a person preaches. Everyone still has their own minds to make their own decisions. I wouldn't care care if Charlie climbed to the top of a mountain and preached like Jim Jones! The people still have the ability to choose between right and wrong. If they choose wrong, then it's THEIR decision alone. If someone tells you to go out and rob someone and you do it, YOU are the 1 to blame for the decision YOU made. It's like I said before, you don't have to jump off a bridge just because someone tells you to. I know, you or someone else posted recently that the example is different from committing murder but I disagree. The point is still the same. You don't have to do what someone else tells you to period. If you don't have enough common sense to think for yourself, then you're weak. The so-called "Family" members were adult enough to think for themselves and they did just that when they chose to commit murder. Regardless of what you think, I still don't believe that Charlie was the leader or main culprit in the murders.
X (aka Noel)
--- In charlesmanson_ and_family@ yahoogroups. com, "eran.gafni"
>
> You are right, David. It was mentioned in all of the books that the Family acted as a compartmented crime organizations - second- and third-rate members knew only part of the plannings or even about who participated in the murders (see the stories of Barbara Hoyt, Kitty Lutesinger and others) because Charlie knew that if those are the persons more likely to "sing" if the Family got arrested (and I think he never doubted he and his "famuly" will be arrested eventually). However, all of them heard his lectures about Helter Skelter and understood that it is "official" Family belief and road map.
(I literally HATE the way Eran carries around that lame "Helter Skelter" theory! In my opinion, he's just as deluded as BUGliosi and everyone else who believes that Charlie initiated this supposed "Race War" crap.)
Re: The Spiral Staircase House
Posted by: "eran.gafni" eran.gafni@XXXXX.com
Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:35 am (PDT)
Charlies' main skill was to control his group through "conquer & devide" - he first let EVERYONE think they are his favorites. LAter on he sensed who is more likely to do quietly what he orders them - thos who were more vulnerable and burned all connections to their previous lives, but those he most trusted were people he figured out will be as cynical and emotionless people. I don't think he ever made someone his "no. 2" - this is just the impression he got people to believe in; Paul Watkins was a girl rectruiter, he was young, charming and easy to adapt and learn, therefore he remembered almost everything Charlie told him and easily could transmit it further to new recrutes; Davis was older and looked tough, therefore Charlie knew he won't cracked seeing violnece and blood; Tex admired Charlie like a puppy, and was very cynical and abandoned every single value people back home thought he held - a perfect exectutioner for Charlie.
--- In charlesmanson_ and_family@ yahoogroups. com, "jlm30260@.. ."
>
> That is why, IMO, both Tex and Paul Watkins really thought they were CM's "2nd in command" I believe he told each of them what ever they needed to hear. Like a parent who tells all of her children "you are my favorite, you know." The only one other than CM that knew what was going was Bruce Davis, who IMO, was truly CM's second in command. Even BD however, probably never knew everything.
(More lame crap from Eran to Jamie. The way I see it, he preaches the word of Vince BUGliosi like a Christian preaches the word of God. Pretty damn shameful if you ask me.)
Re: The Spiral Staircase House
Posted by: "eran.gafni" eran.gafni@XXXXX.com
Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:18 am (PDT)
Well, Noel, tell me of other environmental groups who use the term ATWA to describe their activities or philosophy other than that particular pro-Manson group you belong to?
Also, I read your words and I can't escape the feeling you are just repeating, like a record, words already used by Sandy, Squeaky and Brenda - they are the ONLY former Mansonites who claimed this. The facts have lready been laid during the trials, the words of all other former Family members and others who knew Charlie and the Family back then.
Again, if Charlie isn't the leader, why then the ATWA pages and website and other pro-Manson sites dedicate themsleves soley to HIS philosophy, HIS writings etc? I never seen in any single of them something to mention the others in the group. Why? If they told Charlie what to do or decided for themselves, where are THEIR philosophies where are THEIR writings? Whya arent' THEY included at ATWA or other pro-Manson sites emphaise they OTHERS contribution to the group?
--- In charlesmanson_ and_family@ yahoogroups. com, "X"
>
> Well, obviously we're not going to agree on this so perhaps it's best to move on but before I do, let me clarify some things for you. Regarding my nickname, it's true ATWA is not a concept that I came up with of course but it IS important regardless of who started it. ATWA stands for "Air, Trees, Water, and Animals" and all these things have to do with the environment which I have a great passion for. This is what prompted me to choose this user name. I shouldn't have to explain this to you though. I have done much for the environment so far and I'm quite proud of my accomplishments. By the way, it wasn't only Squeaky and Sandy that have claimed Charlie was NOT the leader. Nancy Pitman also backed this claim. She said herself in the "Manson" film "We are what you made us". You really have no facts as far as I can see to back up your claim that Charlie was the so-called "Leader". Only YOUR words and those of others who have sensationalized the case beyond all logic and reason. Do you realize that ALL communes in the 60's had a head of the household? Charlie may have gotten the family started but I don't believe he led them down the path they eventually took. My father was cruel to me as a child which enhanced the already present violent thoughts inside my head but if I go and kill or hurt someone, should I blame him for it because his actions motivated me to do something like that? Of course not. It would be MY fault if I went out and acted on my thoughts. So what if Charlie refered to himself as a "Father" to the family! That really doesn't mean anything. Bottom line, NOBODY can make another person do something unless THEY make that decision on their own! The killers did what they wanted to period. Charlie could have put any idea out there that he desired but in the end, the REAL killers chose to do what they did. Charlie didn't put the knives in their hands.
>
> X (aka Noel)
(Well now! If this isn't calling the kettle black, I don't know what is. Here Eran clearly accuses ME of repeating things like a record when in fact HE speaks in the voice of BUGliosi! If you listen to BUGliosi talk, you will hear the same garbage coming from him as from Eran. The wording itself may vary on Eran's part but the general ideas expressed from his end are the same as what BUGliosi spews.)
Re: The Spiral Staircase House
Posted by: "eran.gafni" eran.gafni@XXXXX.com
Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:23 am (PDT)
Noel, Charlie, as any real con will NEVER TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for what he is doing - he will always be full of self-convince he NEVER done anything wrong (it's always the others). The killers - after they gathered enought strength to release their minds off him, took responsibility for their part. He, on the other hand, still refuse to take responsibility, as his other supporters do - never take responsibility, blame the others -that's his game up until today.
--- In charlesmanson_ and_family@ yahoogroups. com, "X"
>
> Say what you will about Sandy and Lynette but I have to respectfully disagree about them being "Nuts" as you refer to them as. They're just extremely loyal to their friend and that's all. Susan, Tex, Pat, and anyone else who claims that Charlie used mind control only started saying that to save their own butts. After everything came crumbling down on them, they laid most of the blame on Charlie and took it off themselves. I think if they had not been convicted of anything, it's doubtful they would be saying all that negative garbage about Charlie today. They want to make themselves look good in the eyes of the authorities in hopes they will someday be released and they have chosen to turn their backs Charlie so it looks better for them. Charlie on the other hand remains consistent in what he says and vigilant in the fight for his rights. The killers have gotten more rights than him in prison and it's damn shameful! Charlie NEVER betrayed ANY of them but unfortunately, the same can't be said for THEM. I have seen many interviews that have been conducted with him and he repeatedly denies being responsible for the killings. He knows he's never getting out so obviously, there would be no point in lying about what happened. This is why I believe he's telling the truth when he says he didn't order the killings. He did admit once that he may have walked on the edges of things but as he said it and I quote: "I didn't tell ANYBODY to ANYTHING except what they wanted to do". He has said the same thing all the way down the line and I believe him. Also, when someone is lying, their stories have a tendency to change. Charlie has been saying basically the same thing for years. The wording itself may vary from time to time but the basic overall consistency in his telling of the story never changes.
>
> X (aka Noel)
(Notice how the tone of Eran's posts are gradually getting darker?)
Re: The Spiral Staircase House
Posted by: "WHITE RABBITT" whiterabbitt83@XXXXX.com
Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:08 am (PDT)
eran u dont know what your talking about, noel speaks facts
(More defense from Rabbitt. For the record, he took it upon himself to say all this in my defense. I never put him up to it.)
Re: The Spiral Staircase House
Posted by: "X" atwa13x@XXXXX.com
Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:36 am (PDT)
eran, I don't think it's fair for you to refer to what I'm saying as a "broken record" because I'm only quoting things I have heard. YOU on the other hand have been repeating all of the media sensationalized garbage that has been circulating about Charlie ever since he was incarcerated. In my opinion, YOU sound more like the "broken record" than I do! No offense but this is how I see it. Another thing, there's more than 4 of the original "family" members who said Charlie was NOT the leader. Sandy, Lynette, Nancy Pitman, TJ Walleman (aka TJ The Terrible), and Mary Brunner which makes 5. Ansom 13 (Supporter and wife of TJ), Carole McChesney (Supporter), and Phil Phillips (Charlie's cell mate for 10 years) have also all said the same thing about Charlie. So, that makes 8 individuals total and there may be more that I'm unaware of.
X (aka Noel)
--- In charlesmanson_ and_family@ yahoogroups. com, "eran.gafni"
>
> Come on, I'm looking to see facts which will prove that Manson wasn't the leader of the group or he didn't preached Helter Skelter or wasn't orchestrating the murders, nothing Noel said so far are such facts. TO repeat like a broken record of what been said earlier by only 4 of the former Family members is not to bring facts.
(I think I did pretty good maintaining my composure while debating with Eran regarding his beliefs which I consider extremely misguided.)
Re: The Spiral Staircase House
Posted by: "X" atwa13x@XXXXX.com
Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:36 am (PDT)
Yes, I know there are 2 sides to every story (since I'm the 1 who said it the first time) and I have heard both sides! I simply determined which side I felt was the truth based on other forms of evidence that BUGliosi never brought to light. An old friend named "Ergot" opened my eyes which I'm thankful for because at 1 time, I was just like you and the rest who think that Charlie is the boogyman behind the murders. Where is YOUR evidence to prove he's guilty? BUGliosi's theory in my opinion isn't enough because it's very far out there to say the least. Ergot passed on some very valuable information to me in the form of VHS tapes and overall general statements which gives additional insight into the whole case. You should watch "Charles Manson Superstar" sometime to at least hear the man's perspective in HIS OWN words. I don't think I'm closed-minded at all either! I just know what I know and YOU don't know as much as you think YOU do. This is the way I see it. I didn't come here to get belittled like this though so perhaps we should change the subject since it's obvious you're not willing to look at the other side of anything and I'm starting to get a bit irritated now.
X (aka Noel)
--- In charlesmanson_ and_family@ yahoogroups. com, Davd Paschal
>
> Have you ever considered you are the one who is close-minded for continuing
> to believe that Manson is innocent when there is plenty of evidence to prove
> otherwise?
>
> There are two sides to each story you know!
>
> dp
>
> X wrote:
> >
> >
> > Actually, Nuel Emmonds who wrote 2 books about Charlie is the REAL
> > crook. Also, the killers are the ones who shifted all the blame, NOT
> > Charlie. That's THEIR game and NOT HIS! Regardless of what I say
> > though, you're going to remain closed-minded unfortunately. Like I
> > said before, there are 2 sides to every story and you're only hearing
> > 1 side.
> >
> > X (aka Noel)
( Isn't it something how this "David" individual tries to insinuate that I'M the 1 who's close-minded when it's obvious that HE believes only 1 side of the issue and refuses to hear anything else? As you can see here, I clearly stated that I have heard BOTH sides and I chose which side to believe based on ALL the material presented to me. It doesn't appear that "David" has done the same because he continues to believe in this so-called "Evidence" that proves Charlie's guilt which BUGliosi instilled into the minds of others. Regarding the comment I made about Nuel Emmonds supposedly writing 2 books, Charlie is the 1 who first stated it in an interview he did with Israli reporter Michal Ben-Horin. Charlie said: "Emmonds wrote a book about Emmonds and put Manson's name on it. Then he wrote a book about Manson and put Emmonds on it. So he milked you people for 2 books" or something along those lines. Anyway, this is what my statement is based on. In my opinion, the truth speaks for itself and is best coming from the main source.)
Well, this is all for now. There's more I need to sort through but at least this is a good portion of the facts I have in my files. This is only the beginning so please be sure to check back often.
3 comments:
ok I see yues this blog and your other blog should be 2 different ones. otherwise it can all get mixed up. BUT don't you think you best not use anyones name periood? I see you are xxxxxxxxxing out the email address but it is really not kosher to be posting others comments
would you like to see your posts posted all over? doesn't matter to me one way or the other as I am not in charge here or there. But you might get some of those members complaining about posting their posts all over the place.
anyway I think I am more interested in reading postive posts you will be having and not so much intwerested in what some other group says.
Actually Heavenly, I could care less if my posts are made available to the public because I have nothing to hide. The Manson haters however may have something to hide but I certainly don't. It's not like I'm publishing anything that's untrue or trying to incite an online cyber war by doing all this so it's really not that big a deal. I only want the truth to get out so that others don't go through what I did. It also helps to get all this junk off my chest.
Another thing I would like to add is the fact the group is public already. Anyone with half a brain can join "charlesmanson_and_family" to read all this garbage. However, I advise against it due to all the drama I was forced to endure there. I realize everyone has to make up their own minds though and it's their own fault if they get the same as I got. At least this information is out now so people can make an educated decision whether to be part of that mess or not.
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